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The first I heard of Covenant Marriages was a mobilization call on some Christianese Activist radio — Focus on the Family or something similar. I wonder which organ is at the top of the list! Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:. Elyse Fitzpatrick says legalism will produce rebellion or self righteousness.
Unfortunately, the Duggars are another example of that. I grew up with a family much like the Duggars. They attended our church and a few were friends of mine. He makes a point though, in these homes where there is no grace, and the law is impossible to keep, I think some of these kids completely give up even trying.
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A prime example of that, in my experience, are those who grew up under the Gothard model. Of those I know who rebelled the most, it was the families who followed Gothard. Which includes the family I already mentioned. One other thing about the family I mentioned, while growing up they were the picture perfect family. In fact, as a young girl I used to wish my family was like theirs. A few years ago one of them confessed to me that behind closed doors it was more of a nightmare that has now required counseling for many of them.
My prayer is that the things going on now will be used by the Lord ad a wake-up call for the Duggar family to make some changes. Also, that they will truly understand the gospel, including Josh. Have a cinnamon bun or 3! No clue. They probably would be ok with it under the whole subdue creation theory. Given to you by God to master. Dude, you seriously need to put a warning before you say something like that. Your posts are dangerous for people who are eating.
Having 19 kids under those circumstances is asking for trouble. We need to be careful, however, in how we criticize family size. We have names of five boys and an unstated number of sisters in a certain family from Nazareth. I suspect that evolutionarily speaking, the desire for more and more sex partners Ashley Madison is not unrelated to the desire for more and more babies. I only heard of the show a month ago, when I watched it with my sister-in-law yes, we get it here in Taiwan in between some travel and cooking shows. Then I googled the Duggars and told her about the molestation scandal.
Oh yeah, and our local library also got their book, which I vaguely recall flipping through.
Guess again, Roebuck. BIG difference…. I share your sentiments. When I see this kind of thing happen in legalistic homes I pray that the children of these homes will understand the gospel. I suspect they see it much like I used to see it; grace is for that one moment in time when one accepts Jesus as their Lord. Who can stand a life like that?
I am so glad for the preacher I met who finally set me straight on the fact that I need the gospel every day, not just at the point of my conversion into the faith. In the OT, polygyny and having concubines was permitted. Because of their lack of medicinal knowledge, the mortality rate for women and infants was extremely high. Modern families equally value daughters and sons. Medicine has helped us create a world where fewer people die young and for the first time people can limit the size of their family.
Not that long ago my ancestors had no choice but to have a dozen or so kids only to watch most of them die before adulthood and live in poverty. A few months ago, a quiverfull family in this are had its children taken away by the state because their living conditions was an unfinished cabin, open to the elements, without electricity, runing water, or reliable heat wood stove. Their no debt, off the grid lifestyle was not ideal for that many kids.
Quiverfull is an ideology. The entire movement is very cult like. Headless Unicorn Guy : Sounds Biblical. But it is also cultural — referred to as the Mohar and Ketubah. That and they want as much money as they can get and they could care less how they get it. Your comment is so good. When we broke from this cult like environment, I fell back on my pre-cult life. My husband, on the other hand, was raised with this poison. However, for me, over a long period of time, I have come to the conclusion that church is the worst place for me to grow that relationship.
I am sure that is not the case for everyone but even the process of finding a Body of Christ that IS about Christ and not the leaders, is exhausting and frustrating. After we left the cult, my father wanted me to return to the SCB. No, thank you. I understand. These stories seem to come in waves. Things will be calm for while. Then, within a few days time, Deebs and other bloggers are inundated with stories that need to be told.
Reading around on the subject of ancient culture years ago, the Jews were very interesting in contrast to their Gentile counter parts in general. Every family had a family business whether it was fishing, carpentry or whatever. If that boy showed promise he went on to more study. If not, he went to work with dad in the family business. Boys were needed to maintain the family and girls, while more valued than in other cultures, were married off as young as 13 or so when they were ready to have children.
And because so many died in childbirth and there was a large mortality rate for babies, this made larger families a necessity. The Romans had a more gruesome approach. If the baby was deformed, illegitimate or sickly they were often discarded upon the word of the husband or other paterfamilias elders. Girls who were considered of less value. In order to do this by natural causes which they thought was not murder they exposed the child to the elements. If the gods saved the child, then it was meant to live.
This just more reality TV. TLC used to have interesting programming but turned the channel over completely to reality tv. The programs are cheap to make, earn tons of cash, generate buzz. Everyone loves a train wreck! The Duggars will try to make some cash over this — Tell me Jack? What doe Josh Duggar win today? Just think of the possibilities. And hark! Is that a whistle I hear? The TLC express is ready to leave the station, loaded with more reality tv goodness. I think: it depends on a lot of variables. In my childhood four was the minimum rule of thumb for many catholic families not some church law and four is what was used in popular culture for the post war era as in a house in the burbs, a station wagon, four children and a large dog.
What I seen in that this also is people trying to tell other people what to do. My maternal grandmother had six; they were poor east Texas poor but the kids all grew up to be educated and employed and responsible and all but one married and had from one to four kids. But there are people in our culture who are hugely anti-kids.
They seem to be anti-kids on principle. I find that irrational and offensive and I plan to protest that attitude whenever possible. The personal. Two of the grandchildren who live with me were abandoned at birth in a certain other nation which has a legal anti-kids policy in place. Only one for most folks. I look at these kids, both female and smart and pretty and academically motivated that is a value in our family and of course it gets personal.
The observational. In the meantime, here where I live and where we have a large and growing segment of population which is of a certain identifiable first generation immigrant culture and which tends to have larger families and which is mostly hard working but relatively poor-ish, those kids in the local public school system at the end of last year end-of-grade standardized testing, to the surprise of almost everybody, tested out on a par with the dominant majority ethnicity even in spite of language difficulties.
And this achievement level was seen in both the males and the females. Imagine that, all in spite of the fact that they are poor-ish, have larger families and struggle with the language. But for those who think and feel and believe differently, do what you believe. Act on your own experiences and observations and abilities and motivations.
I totally believe that people have this choice. One and done? Fine with me-unless you try to force that on everybody. Lots and lots-fine with me if you have the resources money, extended family, cultural expectations, religious ideology, etc to deal with it-unless you try to force that on everybody. Or pretend that you are more righteous than god based on your fertility. Did I write that sentence? How could that be since I came from a small family that was not poor? Most of these folks tend to be Calvinist in their belief. In the reformed Calvinist system, TWW has noted on other posts that Female Subordination is the rule of the day; they must be submissive and yielding to men in authority over them at home and church.
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Jim Bob and Josh would view women much differently in various compartments of life than mainline Christianity … and use their religion to justify the way they treat and use the weaker sex. Unfortunately TWW will have plenty of material to report on in the days ahead as more abuse is revealed from this corner of Christendom. Velour wrote: 3. No, you do not need to have a human person for your FB profile. You can leave it blank or you can upload any photo of anything : pet, favorite landscape, self… as long as it is not obscene, etc.
What FB does not allow is multiple accounts for one person. Josh Duggar must be very short-sighted in many ways other than the obvious to not to think that choosing the photo of such a high profile person could not come back to bite him. Of course, he may just have picked a photo that looked at least superficially like him and may not have recognized the name Jonathan Blankfein and it was just a really bad coincidence from his pov that is was someone with money, etc.
There could be lots of things behind it. The affairs could also have their roots in sexual abuse. Josh sexually abused at least five people that we know of, four of his sisters and one babysitter. There could be more victims. Was Josh sexually abused? A lot of these behaviors are the behaviors of a sex addict.
Only 3 states have those — Arkansas, Arizona, and Louisiana. Their wedding was in Florida. We see story after story like that from these proponents. By the way, why are we supposed to take our cues about how to live life from sex offenders? The American church is a mess and approaching apostasy at break-neck speed. In too many places we are failing to keep the Main thing the main thing. When it comes down to it, we each need to dig our own spiritual well. Someday, we will stand individually before Christ to give an account, not as a group that we attempted to worship with.
We need to get this right on this side of Heaven … to be as He is in this world. They are expected to carry on the legacy. Many of them are blanket trained from childhood into perfect obedience. They will be shunned as apostates if they break ranks with this movement. He may get sued for the picture on his OK Cupid account.
The photo was of a guy who lost a job this week because they thought he was messed u in this sex scandal. With that came lying…lying about reality, lying about the extent of their problems, lying about what kind of family they really had, lying to the American public to make money about what a wonderful family they had, how perfect they were.
The bit about the girls locking themselves in their bedroom en masse in the Duggar household turns my stomach. The whole messed up Quiverfull thing seems to create a dynamic in which the kids growing up in it are less able to behave in ways preached by it than those who grow up outside of it.
The hothouse created by their obsession with sex, not having it in this case, seems no less harmful if not more than those who grow up in other sex obsessed households. It makes me queasy queasy queasy. Okrapod, I really appreciated your balanced comment about having options, and the tendency people have to tell others what to do.
I completely agree. Her family was only nominally religious and she became a Christian at the age of 17 during an episode of Star Trek. I remember when about 17 being impressed with the particular episode dated Stardate Sound familiar? The twist is that the slaves imprisoned for practising the religion of their choice are sun worshippers. Sun worship is usually a primitive, superstitious religion. I hope this poor guy gets his job back. How dense could Josh Duggar be, or maybe self-serving and uncaring are the operative words. He certainly has proven to be self-serving in how he has treated his sisters and wife.
They want what they want so bad that they are willing to be idiots about it. What is sad is most of the people I encounter who are extremely frustrated with their church feel they are in mortal sin if they do not attend church somewhere. I understand this but think it keeps them from focusing on the main thing.
Church, as we know it, seems to have replaced allegiance to Christ. It is almost always about taking the kids out of church that really concerns them. And I wonder how much worse it is to keep them there! I have certainly wrestled with that myself. I absolutely agree with you. The point was to try and understand the types that use Ashley Madison and their motivations.
The evolutionary desire for more babies does not seem to be even a subconscious motivation. It seemed to be more: deception as an adventure. And of course, sex. If one wants raw unattached sex, one can easily obtain that these days. I was referring to my family, specifically. When I did geneology research — I noticed that my ancestors usually had about a dozen kids because they lacked the medical knowledge we have today. My grandparents had six as well — three boys and three girls. So in a few generations we went from usually a dozen kids, to six kids, to three kids.
I think it reflects the larger societal trend for familes to get smaller which is why I said it. I know of no one from public school who had more than just two brothers and sisters. Statistically, most families have two or three kids in general. They do this by indoctrinating daugthers to believe that their God-given role is to marry a Godly husband who will lead and provide for the family as she has as many children as humanly possible. Her own dreams, desires, plans, or spiritual calling are unimportant fantasies that distract from the mission of motherhood.
Sons are prepared to be just like their fathers — having as many children and hopefully entering politics to push the Christian agenda as a Christian warrior against the world. The Duggars are but one Quiverfull family. Combine their beliefs with hundreds of others and the reality that their cornerstone belief is that they can outbreed the enemy. It breaks my heart that kids grow up like that and it is considered normal for them. Yes, sad indeed. That, of course, is the genuine; the model of truly doing church with God … much of what is in operation today is a counterfeit; doing church without God.
There are exceptions to this, but such churches are rare and endangered species. But being silent in the face of repeated ridicule-nah. The fathers of adult sons govern and guide sons well into their adulthood, and the great commission does not refer to sharing the Gospel with the lost, but primarily through birthing godly seed. In general, there is nothing wrong with these pursuits of planning, however combined with the concept of the Vision Forum teaching that grown sons still must submit to the wisdom and guidance of their fathers, grown adults actually follow a plan that belongs to their fathers or is strongly influenced and not themselves.
This is where I believe the damage to Josh come into play. He also has obvious addictions which his parents failed to adequately deal with because of their own worldview. I certainly agree with you about the quiverfull ideology, and I have no use for that mess being passed off as being consistent with christianity. Your family sounds responsible and seems to be in fact exercising options.
More power to all of you. But I do feel a sense of relief that they are getting their comeuppance. These people are arrogant! They emboldened their son. They saw no wrong on the harm they inflicted on other people, the police chief, social services. They used their powerful friends in Arkansas to inflict further harm on people just doing their jobs in law enforcement and social services. This statement does not settle with me. It never has. It puts too much on leaders and very little on the individual. Teachers, pastors, administrators, etc.
The Holy Spirit will build up and empower the entire body. It needs members who use their gifts. Does that make sense? In a nutshell, Josh was taught women existed for his purposes. To affirm him, help him succeed and bear children. They were basically objects who exist for men. Not kissing until the wedding, etc. Think of the cognitive dissonance in those messages.
Headless Unicorn Guy :. I am not excusing him because ignorance of the law does not mean one is innocent. But it would be irresponsible not to point out that system can be a breeding ground for deviant behaviors while masquerading as the perfect example. Deception is always deadly for many. Now that is weird. I must have hit send before it was finished but it still showed on my screen? Devil gremlins? Lydia : Yes. Josh is going to have to own his mistakes.
But he is a product of this system. The constant focus on leadership is one of my pet peeves. In my view such a focus negates the reason for the Body. And it also keeps people in perpetual immaturity. The focus should be on ALL developing gifts and the fruits of the spirit. There is this thinking out there that we should spend our time looking for wise mature leaders or praying the current leaders to change into wise, mature leaders.
I think that is a huge waste of time when the focus should be on each and everyone maturing in Christ. Adults who are maturing spiritually do not need mediators or leaders. It is such a red flag. Some he made his messengers, some prophets, some preachers of the Gospel; to some he gave the power to guide and teach his people. Bridget, when church is functioning as God intended, God-called anointed leadership helps equip the saints to do the work of the ministry. The problem is that you and I have not seen much of that in genuine operation in the church; leaders are more annoying than anointed!
Every believer has a part! Max : In the meantime, we better dig our own spiritual well and move where the Spirit leads. We were sold a bill of goods. This lifestyle is touted as THE ideal way to raise children. Some parents only wanted to homeschool their kids, and got sucked into these ideologies through a homeschool conference or materials shared in homeschool support groups.
These ideologies somehow hijacked homeschooling as a platform. Thankfully, homeschoolers are becoming more diverse. Some of us already know the game is rigged. We get angry when people try to defend the Duggars. We know molested children. We know how the kids are disciplined. We disciplined our own kids the same way. I want this movement to go away. Jamie Carter: I certainly agree with you about the quiverfull ideology, and I have no use for that mess being passed off as being consistent with christianity.
I appreciate your comment about not judging people either way. I would have liked to have more children, but my health would have made that very unwise both for me and also for the children I already had. I do not see how it is possible to give 19 kids the love and attention and education that they need to thrive in a modern world. Certainly it was different when people lived on farms and more kids meant more help, not to mention that so many mothers and babies and young children died. The Quiverfull and related ideologies are stuck in a time that never existed, just like the TV families known as The Duggars and the Cleavers and the Nelsons never existed.
Before I get off my soap box, I want to add that Jesus modeled exactly what we are talking about. Very unlikely choices for what He had in mind back then in that culture. Does God have a sense of humor? Then we have a group of women, both married and unmarried who are supporting Jesus financially and traveling with Him and the others.
But that message is lost on so many because of the need for a few to be in control of the many.
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I hear you! Me too! I appreciate your position and you have much to offer in the way of your experience. You are so articulate and wise in your comments. Well, I hate to break it to you but they attend Robert Jeffries church when they are in Dallas. My guess is that the Duggars are of whatever persuasion brings them the most camera time. Is there evidence in their lives, both in and out of the pulpit, that they are experiencing a daily walk with Jesus … or simply following the teachings and traditions of mere men.
Thus, if you are going to mature in your faith, you need to spend personal time in Bible study and prayer, always with a repentant heart so that you may hear His voice as the Holy Spirit leads you into all truth. Perfect church would have perfect leaders, but those are rare and endangered in 21st century church … so, if you are going to be perfected in your Christian journey, you will have to dedicate and discipline yourself to that goal!
Ah bread! I spent some time in Paris long ago. I remember a small stand that sold their legendary baguettes still warm from the ovens. Pure heaven. I had a homemade cinnamon bun and coffee for breakfast this morning! People want to do what pleases God and want to do their best to protect their children.
Good intentions and bad unintended consequences. Oh, well, let me help you. It is a crazy quilt of patched together ideas. Does anybody think that perhaps some of the race-to-reproduce-for-a-cause movement may be racially motivated? In my prior interaction with baptist fundamentalism I ran into some seriously racist ideas. What with the shifting demographic this might be part of it, I am thinking.
Pastor Voddie Baucham in Texas is a black, conservative pastor who subscribes to these beliefs and writes about them. He is well-known. Mostly from the Reformed wing. I have little experience with the fundy Baptist types like IFB and such. I think many have no idea of the roots. Lydia : Do you remember when Martin G.
That was pretty wild. Do you remember when Martin G. ONe of his many names over the years…online…from that Reformed world. Not even sure if that name is real or not. Those guys perfected deception to wage war online. I also believe that the body will see people functioning within their giftings naturally before they are ever recognized publicly for what they do. Some people function in their giftings without ever being recognized in a body. But in thinking about this, there was a strain of that in the Bob Jones wing of Baptist fundamentalism I read about years ago, if I recall correctly.
They were not even allowed to date inter-racially. BTW: Since we are discussing gifts…. Arizona has covenant marriage. Some years later, a woman who worked in my building asked me what I knew about covenant marriage. A priest at the local Hindu temple performed the marriage. Lydia: But in thinking about this, there was a strain of that in the Bob Jones wing of Baptist fundamentalism I read about years ago, if I recall correctly.
Their assumption is that Christian kids are deliberately avoiding marriage. However, there are lots of Christians who want to marry but there is nobody to marry. I had wanted to marry by my late 20s or into my mid 30s, but I was told to get a mate at church….
Same deal in my 30s, 40s. But when I started looking into it, yes, this weirdness is out there — not by most Christians, but by some. I started reading about quivering families and what all. She has forgiven me for this mistake that I made in opening the account. I have sought forgiveness from God and he has forgiven me, so I have been completely cleansed of this sin. It trivializes Christianity.
This was just earlier this month. Having a viral YouTube channel can be quite lucrative. According to MSNBC, blackmailers are moving in to make use of the leaked info and divorce lawyers expect an upswing in business. Because the Crazies have no life, nothing to distract them from their total unsmiling never-sleeping concentration on Advancing The Cause.
I saw this in Furry Fandom, where the Loud Crazies were usually no-life fanboys obsessed with their personal sexual kinks. I saw that video.
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It creeped my husband out. Neither of us had ever heard of this couple before. In the past few years, digital kidnapping has become a small but growing trend on social media. Sometimes these role players grab random photos online, and other times they take from acquaintances. I also think the quivering view is a warped understanding of a few Bible verses, and it reduces women and girls to broodmares, only valued for their ability or willingness to reproduce.
I grew up in a traditional Christian household, where I was taught sex was for marriage only, and that was a conclusion I agreed with after thinking things over for myself and reading the Bible. My parents were also gender complemetnarian in view. There was not a constant focus of sex or not having sex in my family, though. I think I turned out pretty normal. There might be other dynamics going on with the Duggar family or Josh in particular that led to these issues, or with how discussion of celibacy was presented in his family.
Earlier today, I saw an editorial about the Ashley Madison hack that discussed something similar; the author was going on about how stupid people are, even at cheating. The page I read brought up the fact that there are a lot of guys who signed up for AM using their work e-mail addresses some military accounts , or personal ones that all their family contacts them with, rather than using a throw away Hot Mail, Yahoo, etc.
There are even traces of that attitude in garden variety gender complementarianism, where childless, child free, divorced, widowed, and never married women are seldom to never acknowledged by gender comps. The Duggars would probably be considered Breeders rather than PNBs because they apparently have not been responsible parents. Yeah, like in my family which was NOT a quivering family , they were old fashioned, and I got the idea that sex was for marriage only and that kind of thing, but my parents were not super legalistic about other aspects of dating and sexuality.
I have to wonder how sexual papasan Duggar was in the home. Josh had a good role model for being a jerk. How is this an example of being a Christian home or just another example of the Christian Taliban. Stalin did that in and thereabouts to build up the population. There was the Mother Heroin medal 10 kids , and the Order of Maternal Glory 9, 8 or 7 kids for various levels of achievement and something called the Maternity Medal which I know nothing about-only that it existed. This was not about religion but about population growth. Jim Bob and Michelle do not get basic theology: Stupid bathing suits and ugly jean skirts do not prevent sin link.
They think if they limit exposure to the outside world and all its sinful influences that there will be no sin or crime among them. If I remember the story line correctly, one young man tries to murder another in this community in a jealous fit over a young women he has feelings for. This is a guy raised with no exposure to bikinis on women, TV sets, rock music, etc. Abraham, Noah, King David, and all those guys from the Old and New Testaments, did not have radios, cars, TV sets, and the women back then did not wear Yoga pants or spaghetti straps, etc, and those guys still sinned.
Okay, but there are some branches of Christianity where having lots of kids is based in religious views, and they use Bible verses to try to justify the practice. That is what Quivering families do, they take the Bible verse about a man having lots of arrows in his quiver to mean a Christian women should have lots of kids.
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