Nothing Human

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I agree with just about everyone but want to bring up a couple of things no one has mentioned. I would have liked for Janeway to have alluded to all of the folks who have died since she's been Captain and make that factor in to her reasons. But if I can help it I'm not loosing another crew member! I agree with her that Voyager needs B'Ellana.

Even if it means that she treads all over her rights in this case. Captains have to make tough decisions. Which also bugged me that she put the decision to keep or ditch the Cardassian on the Doctor's shoulders. She should have made the decision, period. End of story. But she also owed B'Ellana an apology.

Something on the lines of "I'm sorry. But sometimes I have to be your Captain and I can't be your friend. It could have been a relationship that took the rest of season 6 to repair. I am not sure why Jammer is so bent out of shape regarding the creation of the holographic Krell. There is a huge amount of precedent for programming and creating complex holodeck characters out of thin air.

Two offhand examples are seen in "The Thaw" in which a fake Janeways is 'programmed to respond the way the real Captain Janeway would' , and "Worst Case Scenario", in which basically the whole crew is recreated. Oh, I should also point out that "Alter Ego" implied that apparently holograms and sentient life forms are essentially indistinguishable. So by this time in the series I just take it for granted that holographic characters can be created from nothing. The Doctor constantly reminding everyone how complex his program is could be taken as another example of his pretentiousness.

The episode in which Kim and Paris try to create a new Doc, and he just ends up reading the encyclopedia, was actually an exception to the rule. So with that out of the way, I will give my thoughts on the episode: cliches and bad acting in the first half, but the rest was interesting and innovative.

The Moset character was captivating. You don't hear lines like "Ethics are arbitrary" in Star Trek every day. Never explained. I also find it odd that this alien is apparently impervious to force-fields yet it is vulnerable to a holographic scalpel! On balance, I think it was a good epside, and would give it 2. I could see why Roxann Dawson hated it, though. Oh, and the name of the episode is a brilliant double entendre. Peter York " Rats and mice are also sentient and thus equally deserving of moral consideration" While any living creature should be due certain moral considerations, your statement that rats and mice are sentient is an error that animal rights folks constantly make.

Non human animals are obviously alive and conscious ie: they are aware of and react to their surroundings, but because they are still slaves to instinct, they are most definitely not sentient. Sentience by definition, requires several factors. A sentient being must be self aware, must be able to perceive their own mortality and must also possess a sense of altruism, or in other words, that there are things bigger or beyond themselves that are worth sacrificing for.

And they definitely must have free will, and are not controlled by ingrained instincts. Despite popular belief, Humans don't even possess a true survival instinct, let alone any others.

Our altruistic nature suppressed our survival instinct long ago. Involuntary nervous system functions, ie: breathing, heart beat etc are not instincts. As an example, the fact that any non human animal mother, in the face of starvation, would eat the last bit of food and let her offspring starve or even eat those offspring to stave off starvation, proves they are not sentient.

A human mother would never conceive of such a thing, and that is because humans and humans alone on this planet are sentient. She would sacrifice herself for her children every time. Now there are a small number of non human animals on earth that can be considered semi-sentient. Dolphins, chimps and even some octopus have some level of self awareness, ie: some experiments have shown they can recognize themselves in a mirror.

Dolphins also have demonstrated some level of altruistic behavior ie: recognizing drowning humans need help and keeping them afloat. But because these animals have not evolved to the point where the are totally free of the controlling effect of instincts on their behavior, they can still not be considered fully sentient. Mike P You can't make that claim. Elephants are definitely sentient, as are guerrillas and to a lesser extent, chimps.

The mouse and rat claim is out there but all mammals have some level of self-awareness. The only people who still say otherwise are the ones with a financial stake in the matter, their cronies and well meaning people who are simply misinformed. Yep, once again, really inconsistent reviewing from Jammer as far as Voyager goes. There is a huge amount of precedent for this use of holograms in Trek. I fully agree with Elliott and Onan and others. Vic Fontaine's presence on DS9 is defended by Jammer because someone says "he's very special".

The Geordi-Brahms episode gets 3 stars. The Cardassian doctor can't be a medical expert because he's a hologram created of the fly, but Brahms can be an engineering expert despite being created in an equally improvised way and also being the basis for the episode? This episode explores an issue, doesn't do so in a black and white way. The only arbitrary thing here is the nitpicking, which unfortunately isn't applied evenly to all the Trek series reviewed here. I bet if The Doctor was given the amount of time on his own that it took to recreate a whole nother hologram complete with personality and then the time for it to recreate a whole nother medical lab, he would've easily been able to improve his surgical abilities from the initial forecast "irreparably damaged system" to the eventual outcome of "severe nervous system trauma".

So this entire episode was a futile exercise just to remove the two letters "ir". I'm in two minds about this episode. On one hand I think it's a good example of what Trek does best: tackling big ethical and moral issues, making valid arguments for both sides, letting the answer be up to the audience regarldess of the chloice our main character ends up making.

The execution is great - the dialog is really well written, the delivery by the actors is passionate and emotionally engaging not something Voyager usually does well. On the other hand I understand when people say "don't let details that dont make sense spoil the rest of the episode for you" - and I wish I could follow that advice to just shut out those details.

I love the taste of a good moral dilemma presented with good dialog, but Wait, I agree that we should not let small plot holes to divert us from the main stories and deepest debates that Trek can offer. But let's not go to the other extreme as well. Sorry, in telling a story, it sometimes becomes pretty damn important how the story is told.

Especially when it affects the universe where the show operates in. Jammer is right. If it were so easy to create operating holograms, there would be no reason for Starfleet not having a lot of holo-people working around. It does not matter whether in TNG or any other instalment Trek has delivered other holo-absurdities. Nor it matters if what came later was good. I am fully capable of recognizing a very good episode moral question and execution while criticizing a major plot absurdity.

And so, now turning to so-called moral issue treated by the episode. I loved the debates! Very powerful moments. But in the end, although it made total sense for me to debate on whether or not the data from the Cardassian should be erased due to moral considerations, debating on even treating Torres felt forced and artificial. What is the fault of the current patient? It is nonsensical at the context it was presented. Also, I though odd that the moral decision was just put in the Doc's shoulders.

The captain got a bit lazy, Hugh? Even though, I am happy the episode brought all that to the table. And it was mostly solid and certainly touching and powerful. Strongly underated. Interesting episode, except that they're setting up a cardboard tiger. Why couldn't the doctor just download the info into his database? He could have deleted some opera if he didn't have the room. And if it's so easy to create this guy, why has it been so difficult to create another doctor?

In 'Message In a Bottle' they were unable to create another doctor, when they thought the Doc may have been lost.

The whole thing is just annoying. However if iI don't think about any of those incongruities, I can still think this is an okay episode. Interesting how an episode so fundamentally concerned with medical ethics could make so light of the issue of patients' rights. Especially in the case of the Doctor, whose ethics drove him to sentence and carry out the murder of a sentient hologram why was Krell Moset less deserving of personhood than the Doctor himself, who most likely would've demanded and received a trial and legal representation if his deletion were even proposed?

And I don't want to hear about Janeway's orders. The Doctor wouldn't even give Tuvix an injection because it amounted to euthanasia without consent, forcing Janeway to do it herself, yet he was happy to perform delicate experimental surgery on a patient who had expressly declined to allow it. Janeway couldn't even require him to do it if he had objected anyway, since we know the Chief Medical Officer on a starship outranks the Captain in medical matters. Where were the Doctor's cherished ethics when he was treating B'Elanna without her permission? I'd like to note, that real world model for this episode would be rather Japanese Unit than Nazis.

Nazis, although cruel and inhumane, were like kids in playground compared to these oriental butchers. There is really no dilemma about medical research in the episode. If it's already been done and recorded, doesn't really matter how it was acquired. When someone I care about is dying, and there is a known cure that doesn't cause any more suffering to anyone at present or future, I could care less where it came from. Just use it. Could someone's feelings be hurt? Feelings are very low on the totem pole of importance compared to someone else dying.

They can suck it up and tell themselves that their suffering wasn't completely in vain. If it's borg technology, it obviously wasn't acquired in any nice way. Someone suffered for it. Yet in dozens of episodes that's a non-issue. Mediocre episode at best. Highly unplausable, also an unrealistic dilemma.

So one could argue that, as most science fiction is, you can see more than one parallel to us in that mirror. I agree, the episode was pretty bad for most the reasons you stated. Jammer's comment from this episode : "Harry and Doc spend a few minutes in the holodeck, give the computer a few broad commands, and presto—Krell in the flesh, a surgical assistant who can supply Doc with the assistance he needs to save B'Elanna's life. The computer's sentient capability is the issue, not whether misspeaking one word can, or even does, cause it.

In all fairness Elliott, the point of the VOY episode was absurd, even if the episode itself turned out pretty good. Any excuse as to why the Doc couldn't just access all the information in the computer database and do the work without consulting "holo-Crell" is a joke. I always though the episode would have worked better on DS9 with the real Crell wanting to treat Kira. That said, if you wave away the nonsense of the holodocs computer finding creating a holomatrix to talk to more efficient than directly accessing the information, the rest of the 45 minutes after that is quite good.

And beyond that, Crell is practically a new EMH and there was an episode where Harry was unable to create one. In TNG the only "oddity" is that a holo character was given sentience. I don't know that those 2 things go together. I didn't like this episode because it felt like everyone was making a mountain out of a moleheap. They create a hologram that can fix B'elanna's condition, but she and some never heard of crewman despise him for things the person the hologram is based on did in the past.

Well, ok, but that's not him, though, is it? What the real person did is not what the hologram did. As a matter of fact, the hologram didn't do anything. I didn't buy the whole 'we can't use his research, because it was acquired by unethical means' thing either. Do you know how much of Doc's knowledge was acquired by unethical means?

I'm guessing it's a fairly large chunk of his database and yet you have no problem using that on a daily basis. Why would this Cardassian be any different? Honestly, I was with Krell regarding his stance on how to apply medical knowledge. It benefits the people of today and tomorrow. You can't change the past anymore, but that doesn't change the fact that that research remains usefull today. It saves lives today and will continue to save lives in the future.

Heck, I would even go so far as to say that Krell embraced the whole 'needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few' concept Spock was so famous for. If he hadn't done what he did, many more would have suffered. You can debate the rights and wrongs of this all day long, but in the end someone still has to make a choice.

He chose to harm people in the short run so his research could save countless more in the long run. Whether that's ethical or not, the damage is already done. Why not use what became of it for the good of mankind? Computer change visual and personality parameters of Krell from Cardassian to Ferrengi. Crisis averted, Hilarity ensues.

You know that, don't you? This episode had some big flaws too much playing it safe, sensationalism, use of strawman but enough that was good that I would call it a success. I thought it was clear that holo Krell, especially his personality and opinions, was his public image from medical conference participation and Cardassian-released information rather than necessarily close to the real person. I especially liked the ending.

While Janeway saying that they should discuss the morality later and later refusing to discuss it is frustrating, the episode pretty much admits it's a cop-out, pulling rank to get utility, Torres is still pissed and the Doctor's final actions suggest he regrets both the captain's and his actions and does make a sacrifice so that it won't happen again. Although perhaps not intended to, Torres practically encouraging Paris to defy orders in the next episode can be seen as a follow-up.

He was a Maquis. Jay - Sat, Sep 3, - pm USA Central "along those lines, Janeway readily harvests Borg technology left and right, all with no expressed concern for all of the horrors the Borg have exacted on not just one other race, but countless ones," 8, species to be exact. It was a very true and valid one. More extremist animal rights nonsense from you.

Most animals on Earth are not sentient. Experimentation on them is completely justified to save human lives. The comparison of Star Trek aliens with non-fictional non-human animals is absurd. Rats and mice are sentient? Give me a fucking break! How do you feel about anti-lice shampoo? A war crime? Dude, you've been hugging trees for far too long! The issue in this episode was complete horseshit! As others have pointed out, Janeway has no qualms with using Borg technology.

And even if a cure for cancer would have been developed by torturing and killing Jews in concentration camps, that cure should still not be discarded. Using the cure to save the lives of those that the Nazis wanted dead would be sweet revenge. This episode was bullshit from beginning to end. The "morality" here was an insane construct and much to do about nothing! We possess tons of instincts, including the instinct to quickly remove our hand from a hot stove. And we certainly do possess survival instincts. Plus, many humans like myself do not have an altruistic nature to suppress our survival instincts or any other instinct.

This doesn't mean we don't possess any morality, but as a libertarian, I sincerely believe that altruism is the biggest evil ever conceived by humanity. So there goes your theory that all of us have an altruistic nature. Altruism has nothing to do with kindness towards others. Altruism means that you place others in a superior position to yourself. Altruism is masochism and emotional self-cannibalism. Love, kindness, and empathy towards others are very good things, but our motives for those good things are always selfish. Take away that selfishness in the name of bullshit "altruism" and you take away all those good things too!

Altruism - especially altruism to the State - is responsible for every evil and inhuman atrocity and genocidal massacre ever devised. No totalitarian government could possibly arise to enslave a population of selfish people who experience love, kindness, and empathy towards other people with selfish motives. Only by decoupling everything good and beautiful from selfishness which is what altruism attempts to do can you destroy the only motivation for everything good and beautiful and instead get sick dictatorships like Nazi Germany or Stalinist Russia where people are ordered to deny themselves and submit fully to the State in the name of "unselfishness.

It is against our nature. And everything good inside the human spirit love, kindness, empathy is predicated on selfish motives that altruism, with its idealistic bullshit, threatens to destroy! Far from being our nature, altruism is the biggest enemy of human nature and the destroyer of every good thing. It leads to nothing but death camps and misery, and takes away the only natural motivation selfishness to be kind to anybody!

Long live love, kindness, and empathy! Fuck altruism! I agreed with Janeway back in "Tuvix", but I can't say I agree with her here. B'Elanna expressly said she didn't want treatment, and it's her own life that's at stake so she has the right to refuse certain methods. I don't know what the captain was thinking except that she's getting so obsessed with maintaining the status quo on her ship that she doesn't care about human rights anymore. That said, this episode was an idiot ball of insensitivity.

Whose bright idea was it to have a Bajoran be in the room when working with a famous Cardassian? Like other reviewers, I am puzzled by why Harry didn't augment his appearance to begin with if he recognized controversy. Oh and deleting the data is equivalent to admitting you were wrong to use the data to begin with, why doesn't the Doctor at least stick to his guns on this?

Instead were stuck with a message that Janeway can't afford to be as enlightened as Picard or Major Kira. Elliott and others are right in a sense that there is already precedent for this holographic representation in Leah Brahms. There's also no evidence that this personality is actually similar to the real Krell Moset.

After all, HoloLeah was nothing like the real Leah, and this hologram didn't know about the atrocities. It's certainly possible that the computer gets a best guess and just downloads the right personality for a person of that Myers-Briggs personality type. Close enough, right? So arguments that there's no way the computer would be able to replicate Krell so perfectly, I think, are misguided.

I'm also willing to assume that the Doc was anthropomorphizing him a bit. In other words, the Doc was pretending he was real and sentient when he was really just another program. We do know the EMH has a bit of a chip on his soldier about being a hologram, and may care more about other holograms then the humanoid crew would. That said, the holo-aspect still seemed off.

Maybe the Doctor wouldn't mind conversing with the hologram, but Kim? Only Paris treated Krell like, well, a computer program. Time was important, why are we worrying about arguing with a hologram? Even more so, why is the hologram being given a part in the argument? It's just a computer, unless you really believe the computer can create sentience that easily Moriarty notwithstanding It shouldn't have a say in the ethical arguments.

And at the end, it was already writing a paper on the subject and looking forward to more collaborations? Yeah, looks like humans are completely pointless, the computer can do everything. So yes, the emphasis placed on Holo-Krell bugged me. But whatever, let's ignore all that. Heck, let's transfer this episode over to DS9 pre-Dominion War, of course as Robert mentioned so we can have the real Krell.

Let the storyline and arguments play out the same way. Would this end up being a great episode? I mean, it's great that, for once, Trek didn't go for the sledgehammer style of making sure one view is the Right One and all else are only held by primitive irrational stupid people. Nobody backs down from their opinions, and everyone gets in at least one good argument. On the surface, at least, that should lead to a compelling drama. So what was the problem?

It wasn't that the arguments weren't presented fairly, it was that they were all ignored. Seven mentioned that the crew were using Borg technology despite the atrocities the Borg inflicted; no one mentioned it after that. The Doctor declared in the end that the data should be deleted, but had no answer why it was perfectly fine in this one instance.

And worst of all, Janeway declares that the ramifications of the ethical decision are hers and hers alone, meaning she will bear with the consequences of her actions. And one of the consequences is, quite naturally, Torres being pissed off at her. And Janeway tells her to simply get over it. How is that accepting the consequences? How is that dealing with the ramifications? It was extremely insulting of Janeway to act in such a manner, even if she fully believes Torres is in the wrong. Did she try to explain her reasoning to Torres, did she apologize, did she sit down and empathize with her?

Nope, just a "screw you". It is not a sign of strength in the captain, but rather a sign of arrogance and a sign of disrespect. I cannot believe that the writers thought this was a good resolution for the ethical dilemmas being faced. So what happened? We have a story in which an ethical dilemma is produced and all sides debated. Do we get a resolution to this debate? Which isn't necessarily a bad thing as a "yes" answer can often mean annoying preachifying , but still means no plot resolution. Do we come to a reasonable compromise in the ethical debate? No, unless you count the illogical and wholly unsatisfying compromise of "it's ok in this instance because I said so but not any others".

And did it lead to new relationships, new understandings among the crew? No, because the brief attempt to reach such a change was shot down by the arrogant despot of a captain in that last scene. So what, exactly, was the point? Voyager, it seemed, must agree with Krell in the quote Jammer highlighted: ethics are arbitrary.

They sure treated it like that here. Besides Janeway's terrible characterization at the end, I also have a severe problem with the Doctor's character here. Namely, that he would go along with Janeway's order at the end. Yes, I understand he is sentient by now, and that his sentience implies freedom of choice on his part. But he was designed, first and foremost, to be a doctor.

And I have an extremely difficult time believing that medical ethics is NOT hardcoded into him in much the same way as the Three Laws are in Asimov's books. In other words, when it comes to medicine, he should NOT be able to do anything that would go against his ethical subroutines any more than I can program myself to not need to breathe.

Star Trek Voyager S 5 E 8 Nothing Human / Recap - TV Tropes

It's part of his very essence. And part of medical ethics is to obtain consent from the patient and to pay attention to that consent. Crusher was adamantly opposed to the guest doctor's procedure, and would never have done it on her terms. Yet Worf asked for the procedure. Did she say no? Did she give him an alternate treatment whether he liked it or not? She made sure Worf had enough information to make an informed decision, and when he chose against her wishes, she went and assisted in a procedure that she despised. Likewise, if Torres, of sound mind, refused Krell's aid, then that should be the end of it from the Doctor's perspective as well.

Of course, then this episode would have gone way differently, so maybe the writers just didn't care. But it still bugs me. There's still enough meat on this episode to make it interesting, but it does falter in multiple ways. Thus, I can't really consider it a classic or anything. One thing I will say about Season 5 so far, while it has been a bit hit and miss in its execution, it certainly hasn't been boring. Practically every one has been, if nothing else, an interesting idea.

There's certainly an element of artificiality to the plotting here - what else could there be if it coincidentally turns out that the fellow they need in the database is a Cardassian war criminal - but this is another decent addition to the Star Trek discussion on ethics. What's perhaps most interesting is how Janeway is written - worry about morality later, hands responsibility for the decision to the Doctor, and basically tells B'Elanna to suck it up.

I'm not entirely sure that rings true character wise, but then there have been a number of odd Janeway beats so far this series. But outside of this there's a lot of debate and things don't exactly rattle on. It's OK, but not much more. Skeptical: There is basically nothing to add to your review. If Torres would have been unconscious - ok, she gets mad later, and the captain apologizes.

Instead she basically ignores human rights, medical ethics, and I guess star fleet protocols and does not even have the descency to apologize to B'elanna. Really, she is the worst of all the Star Trek Captains. When she proposed to stay behind to close the wormhole in "Night", THAT was the perfect opportunity to just declare Chakotay Captain and wave her goodby.

As much as everyone hates Chakotay and despises him for beeing a wooden piece of nothing, that STILL is better then her constant arrogance, carelessness, misjudgement and abuse of authority. We would get something akin to TNG, where Picard relies on his subortinates to provide important information and may even let them decide whats best. This would have worked so much better, instead of having janeway decide everything, from medical to ethical to tactical to scientifical problems, and always having her propose the right answer to all those questions. Because even if somebody else proposes something, and the whole episode revolves around that proposal, most of the time janeway has to come in and her new idea magically works, because she knows everything, apparently.

Overcompensating much for the fact that she's a woman? I thought people where over that kind of thing in the 24th century. It also makes her scenes where she's supposed to behave "motherly" look complete asinine, and she looks like a control freak. Seriously, who the fuck made her a captain? I guess this was an experiment by Star Fleet to find out at which point a crew would mutiny on accord of their consciousness, and apparently it failed.

That's why they didn't show us the aftermath of their homecoming: Star Fleet put janeway back in the mental home and demoted all crewmembers on account of unethical behavior and failing the test. Every day, Picard, now retired, comes to visit her, to stare at her in disgust for an hour, in complete silence, while she rambles on about that she will bring the crew home no matter what and tries to launch photon torpedoes at him, in between screaming about the prime directive.

Sorry for the rant, but as I am rewatching Voyager I need to vent my anger somewhere. I'm usually the one slamming Janeway for being a crazy immoral dictator. I will say though that a ship lost in the Delta Quadrant cannot afford to lose it's chief engineer. Medical ethics be damned. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one.

When she killed Tuvix she did so to save 2 friends. Tuvix was perfectly capable of doing Tuvok's job. It was the right call, even if it's ethically problematic. Sorry if I came across as too angry. I actually agree with you: It was the pragmatic descision, and ultimately the right one. If she was anybody other than a Star Trek captain, I would not have taken much issue with that descision. But: Firstly, she does never defend herself that way. She does not say "I am sorry, but I can just not afford to lose my chief engineer.

If you hate me now, that is your descision, but I need you. Secondly, she more then once put the crew in danger for the sake of her moral principles, like the time when she saved that from the Hirogen. That was hardly a pragmatic descision, and she always comes across as defending principle and morality at all costs.

If the whole series would have explored what it means being in the Delta Quadrant, all alone, and there would have been a progression away from Star Fleet principle to a more pragmatic approach, ok. But instead, whenever she so chooses, she invokes the Prime Directive, or something else for that matter, or completely ignores it, while the series expects us to be on her side, and not to question her descision. The Captain is always right, as Tuvok explains to Seven. Now, if this really was a ship in the Delta Quadrant, her first priority should be crew cohesion. She has to be respected to hold her crew together, and listen to them from time to time, even respect them and modifiy her descision, to keep them on her side.

Instead she makes a descision, and never explains herself. If you do that for one or two years, constantly putting your own crew at risk to safe some aliens, or to explore some unknown phenomenon - you lose respect. It is not a sign of strength to never change your descision. Incidently, in "Latent Image" she acts like I would expect her to act as a Star Fleet captain, more or less. The only nitpick in that episode, and it's a really minor one, is that she tells Seven, when she comes to her quarter, "Now is not the time". Ok, but later she wakes Seven up and says "now is the time", so But this is really minor.

I guess if this was Battlestar Galactica, i would have taken less to no umbridge with her. Adama constantly has to make tough descisions to save the convoy, but we see him ponder, discuss the options. And that series really feels like they are in a tight spot. But since Voyager is supposed to carry the flag of the evolved humanity across the Delta Quadrant, I take umbridge with such a two-faced captain.

Following Us

And by the way, B'elanna isn't the only capable engineer on the ship. There was also that scottish guy, whatever happened to him - and Seven. She could do engineering, heck, with her Borg implants I am not sure there's anything she can't do. All I am saying is, if you doom Voyager to death in "Prey" for the sake of principle in this case for granting asylum to you can not ignore all principles in case of B'elanna.

Chose one. I can make you a good argument for a court martial. I've written at lengths here about her uneven characterization. I actually really like Mulgrew, and one of the Janeways I really like But you are right You never know which one it's going to be. But in this case I agree, despite Joe Carrey. It just pains me that this flaw makes the series so much worse. Literally every other option would have been preferable.

Even something like giving Chakotay her dictatoresque qualities he was a Maquis terrorist, after all and giving her only her scientific-motherly qualities. Or letting her slowly change from a goodwilled motherly figure to a bitchy dictator over the course of the series. Just a little consistency, and everything would be improved tenfold.

The amount of ambiguity in the technical capabilities of equipment holographic projection and programming in this case and also in crew technical qualifications leads this show to be an unnecessary disaster. Instead of thinking about to put the elements of the story together in a plausible fashion - cliche's are used - but are badly over-extended.

This could have been accomplished by having a group of Cardassians rescued by the Voyager, among them the Cardassian exobiologist in question. Then the problem would have simply been to explain their presence - and the new alien species in question could certainly have neatly supplied that mechanism. One possible suggestion is that the Cardassians were on a mission to investigate the insects ship in the Alpha quadrant - and the insects possessed the slipstream drive and took off back to the Delta quadrant. There are a number of ways that the Cardassians could have been pulled along through that same slipstream - perhaps they had engaged the insects ship with a tractor beam at the time..

After that you could run the story pretty much the same way - except you would have the actual Cardassian on board - more meat, less BS. Then of course you would have a warm body to vent at - and if you wanted to get rid of said warm body by the end of the show it would be slightly more involved than deleting a holo-program..

Ya - this episode fell in a heap because it lacked imagination when identifying the plot mechanisms. Sure you want to tell a story - but it needs to develop in a plausible fashion - not be thrown together by magic. With regard to the technical qualifications of the crew - this show would work a lot better if they were clearly defined. For example if Harry was overtly identified as a Communications Engineer, and B'lanna was a Propulsion Engineer - this would give Harry a lot more scope, while not undermining the importance of B'lannna.

With the technology of that era, there would be a lot of hybrid science degree's. For example in our modern world there is a degree 'Computer Science' - this is obviously not really a science degree - its a hybrid degree that combines technician computers , engineering electronic and science information. The crew of a ship like Voyager would really need a lot of these kind of technical specialists. I think this would help the show a hell of a lot - not everyone can do everything - and everyone would have something they are really good at. Having read through a lot of your reviews and the comments, I think I'm one of the most forgiving Voyager viewers willing to comment I love the show.

But this is one of the few I'm even harder on than you. Tremendously ill-conceived from every angle I can think. This presumes that the characters are fundamentally ignorant, stupid and silly people. That is the only way we would be having these arguments between the characters. The scene where they're having a "debate" about this?

I can't even hardly believe they did this to these poor actors. Embarrassing for their characters. Dear Doctor though, however academically baffling, was produced to be a highly watchable, perfectly paced, very well acted, very tastefully shot hour of television. If you don't actually think about the "point" of that show which is actually insane , it's as watchable as a slow, thoughtful type of ST gets. Yet, this has all the bizarre and wrongheaded actions of Dear Doctor, without even being particularly watchable or interesting.

I rarely say this, because I usually think it's an unfair critique, but this just doesn't ring true of the characters at all. For any of them really. And what a waste of a Picardo vehicle. What everyone says about the creation of the new doctor program is spot-on. If it had redeeming features of any kind though, I probably wouldn't think twice about it. Imagine it while exploring the Gamma quadrant a strange creature attaches itself to Kira and she is taken back to DS9 for treatment but alas!

Doctor bashir can not remove it but a Cardassian doctor in a nearby system can. Also why does B'elanna hate Cardassians so much all of a sudden? She grew up on a Federation world! THAT at least is explainable. I don't think she hates Cardassians that much, but this is like being friends with a bunch of Holocaust survivors and then needing to be treated by Mengele.

Or at least it would be if it weren't a hologram. Right now she's just refusing to let the Starship Voyager treat her :P. Such a silly, plothole filled episode that tries its darndest to make a philosophical point about medical ethics. Watching this back in my teens, I already felt B'elanna was off her meds to refuse treatment. Entire societies are built on breakthroughs made during wartime. World War I kicked off aviation and modern reconstructive surgery, for instance. Heck, even Zefram Cochrane's warp ship was a refitted nuclear missile.

What did make me snicker when I rewatched it recently was the little conversation between the Doctor and Moset with Doc lamenting none of his peers ever hear of his accomplishments as he toils away in obscurity only for Crel to offer to read them. Jammer: "Why does this bother me so much? His values are just different.

I would be surprised of he had thought that operating on Cardassians in the same fashion was also acceptable for the advancement of science. Why can't doc just download this info and "get smarter"? He already is the sum of what, medical professionals? Essssh, I don't know what's stupider, conjuring up this hologram out of thin air or just how idiotic the Bajoran' reaction to it is. Should anyone really consider how knowledge is obtained when putting it to good use?

I'll go 1 star because the bug was pretty cool. Yanks - "Should anyone really consider how knowledge is obtained when putting it to good use? Don't understand your point Robert. I'm not condoning the experiments, but the knowledge gained shouldn't be suppressed. Yanks - I wasn't making a point. If you read that part of the wiki article they discuss that doctors had differing opinions as to if the actual knowledge should be thrown out.

They even link to an article that talks about the Jewish community thinking it heretical to find any value in the data at all. Your question was "is this the big dilemma".

"Nothing Human"

The answer is yes. I wasn't giving an opinion Robert, I scanned the article and just find it hard to believe intelligent people can still have that opinion. Let's say the knowledge required to sure a plague was obtained by questionable means. Should it not be administered based on how it was obtained?

The idea is a slippery slope. IE if we allow this data to be used after the person creating it did horrible things to get it, what's to stop others from doing horrible things in the future secure in knowing their contribution to science will be secure. The answer is hopefully "so that you don't end up in jail or executed". Here's a quote from biology professor John Hayward - "I don't want to have to use the Nazi data, but there is no other and will be no other in an ethical world. I've rationalized it a bit. But not to use it would be equally bad. I'm trying to make something constructive out of it.

I use it with my guard up, but it's useful. An allegory of a "Jewish" person struggling with whether or not to be treated by "Nazi" data would have been more interesting. As it is, you are correct Janeway's choice is plainly ridiculous. Let her chief engineer die so that they don't have to use data they don't like or don't.

Die in the middle of the damned Delta Quadrant. Well, we can always pick up a new engineer at the next starbas There's a lot out there about it. It's not a bad idea of something to make an episode on but it's no Jetrel. Robert, "My point though was that this was a real thing that has been really debated by real scientists for a long time. What's to stop others? You can't do much more than that. Jammer's constant DS9 inflections are getting old. Please refrain from comparing DS9 to Voyager. It is clear that DS9 was your favorite series and that you despise, for the most part, Voyager in all aspects.

Yanks - "Don't agree with this though. I was just stating the other side basically. I actually think Spock would say that the urge to throw the data away is an illogical emotional response. How many of us would want to set fire to data that describes how a loved one was painfully frozen just to be thawed later? But on the other hand if your kid fell in a freezing lake are you going to not want everything used to save them? It's why I still think this episode would have been better with Kira and the real Krell.

You could have upped the stakes in all sorts of ways. Janeway doing the authoritarian thing didn't really work. They centered it largely around the Doctor, which was an odd mistake. His decision to delete the data at the end was weird. Now that would have been perfect. Ziyal is dying, and is in Kira's care, and the only one that can save her is Krell, a current dissident that fled Dominion leadership that Kira has to track down and decide to work with to save Ziyal.

That's an interesting moral dilemma. Agree Robert. You'd think the "superior" DS9 would have broached that! I'd just sit there, watch it and shake my head. They created a hologram of Cardassian, and they also receive all the information about the Cardassian technology that knew the original Crell Moset? On what basis has been able a hologram of Moset make that calibration on tricorder? Ok, then why they do not create some Romulan? Getting information about cloaking device could never be easier irony.

I think that two stars is fair for this episode. I enjoy some of the moral dilemma sp? For example, Seven tells the Doctor: "It is curious. The Borg are accused of assimilating information with no regard for life. This Cardassian did the same; and yet, his behavior is tolerated. Therefore, I agree with those who said that Janeway and the crew of Voyager are being hypocrites for using technology of the Borg, which is a species that assimilated many other species against their will even though they do not kill the species , but some of the crew are questioning the use a hologram of a Cardassian which is a species who has history of torturing and sentencing bajorans and many other species to death without a trial and experimenting on other alien species without any though of morals and ethics.

I also agreed with some previous posters who said that Janeway made the right decision to allow the Doctor to continue to use the cardassian hologram to help Torres. Even though I believe that Torres should be the one who decides if she needs help from the holographic cardassian or not, I guess that Janeway made that decision because she can lose anymore of her crew and she needs the help of her chief engineer to keep the engines running at peak efficiency to Voyager and its crew can return home.

Everything else about this episode from the crew members arguing and fighting over a hologram to the hologram conveniently almost a deux-ex-machina doing things like recalibrating a tricorder to be incredibly ridiculous. Shawn D Seven's line is a false analogy here. A similar situation to this episode would be if a Ferengi stumbled upon a non-fuctioning Borg cube and downloaded it's computer banks and use that data to save lives on their ship. A key point in this whole argument is that Voyager and its crewmembers are free of any direct wrongdoing related to Krell's work. The Borg, however, are directly related to all the technology they misappropriate by killing and enslaving billions.

It's possible if not likely that Janeway and more so the other crewmembers do feel uneasy about using Borg technology; I don't see why a lot of fans seem to have accepted it and view this episode as the morally odd view. That a lot of fans did accept it and thus are perplexed that there's a dilemma here seems an example of how questionably-ethical actions set precedents for having more later on.

It amuses me that people are telling Jammer how he should be reviewing a show that he reviewed 18 years ago. If you don't like his Voyager reviews because you think he was biased in favour of DS9 or against Voyager or whatever, don't read them! It's his thoughts on episodes based on his honest perspective.

There are people quibbling on different scores given to episodes reviewed years apart ffs. Ignoring the fact that episodes with superficial similarities may actually be more different than they seem, my opinions on things can change month to month, let alone over many years. I find myself disagreeing with Jammer quite regularly, but I still find his perspective interesting, which is why I read his reviews.

Anyway, onto this episode. As far as the silliness with the hologram goes, I can ignore it. I ignore a lot of silliness from Trek, not least with the fact that space is huge, and the chances of randomly bumping into the Equinox, or the Ferenghi, or the 37s, or Friendship One, or the Caretaker's wife I could keep going for a long time here are tiny. It's suspension of disbelief, and I'm fine with the contrivance, especially considering Trek has done silly things with holograms in the past, and will continue to do so throughout Voyager's run.

The big issue for this episode is, how interesting is the ethical dilemma? I find myself disagreeing with Trek's take on ethics more often than I agree, and this episode is no exception, in that I don't see a dilemma at all. I look at it this way: between them, vaccines, antibiotics and insulin have saved millions, if not billions of lives, and improved countless more.

For all I know, the development of those treatments involved some ethically questionable research. If I found out that, say, the development of vaccines led to the death of thousands of orphans, I would think that it's a tragedy, roundly condemn those involved, and go and get my children vaccinated without a second thought.

Same for other medical treatments. Throughout history, people have done awful things. Many things that we now consider abhorrent were considered normal within living memory. I'm sure that in years, people will look back at us and make the same judgements. We have an obligation to learn from history, and to avoid repeating the same mistakes, but we have no obligation to throw out any advancements that involved questionable ethics. That would probably mean throwing out all progress - medical, scientific and even moral. A more interesting dilemma was Janeway ordering the procedure against Torres' wishes.

I agree with her decision, but it's not as clear cut. I think Torres was an idiot in this episode, but given that, she was absolutely within her rights to be annoyed with Janeway at the end. Janeway had a tough call to make, and she made it. It's just a shame there was no real follow up. And maybe a callback to Tuvix would have been nice.

Harry transfers Doc and Krell from the Holodeck to Sickbay — Doc was wearing his mobile emitter on the Holodeck, and is wearing it again in Sickbay. I guess Harry transported it at the same time Doc was transferred. Given the passionate and lively response, I think this episode was successful. EMH: Let's start with the parameters for physical appearance. Moset appears. KIM: Have you mentioned to anyone else that this guy's a Cardassian? EMH: What difference does it make?

KIM: Maybe you haven't heard. They're not the friendliest folks in the galaxy. KIM: Good point.

Jammer's Reviews

Computer, transfer all reference medical files to the simulation. KIM: Now install personality subroutines and voice approximation. The hologram speaks with an indistinct voice. EMH: This is going well. What's wrong? KIM: Some sort of overload in the interactive matrix. EMH: Can you clear it up? KIM: I'm trying. Computer, install a recursive algorithm. KIM: Try it again. EMH: Doctor Moset? EMH: It's a pleasure to meet you, Crell. What's your name? EMH: Actually, I'm in-between names at the moment. I'm an Emergency Medical Hologram. KIM: But his friends call him Doc.

May I presume? EMH: Certainly. EMH: Oh, well, I've got a patient with a rather unusual problem. She's become fused with a non-humanoid lifeform I know nothing about. EMH: That's exactly why we've created your programme. EMH: You're a hologram as well. I'd like to see the patient right away. EMH: Mister Kim, would you do the honours please.

KIM: No problem. Listen, if he destabilises again, take him offline and call me. EMH: Understood. EMH: Lieutenant. EMH: Don't be rude, Lieutenant. This way, Crell. I can see why you're having difficulty. EMH: It's physiology doesn't match any of the standard templates in our database.

EMH: I agree. And from what I can tell it has co-opted her vital systems. No, the cranial ridges are less pronounced. Klingon-human hybrid. EMH: Exactly. Let's hope your instincts about the creature are equally insightful. You have an isomolecular scanner? EMH: No, just a standard issue Starfleet tricorder. MOSET: I suggested an upgrade to the Starfleet people at a joint medical conference, but they assumed I was just an arrogant Cardassian trying to prove his superiority.

Or maybe they thought I was a spy. EMH: I hope you weren't too offended. Sometimes even enlightened races can't find common ground. I may be able to recalibrate this thing. There, that should help. EMH: Amazing. Janeway to Seven of Nine. We don't know how much time B'Elanna has left. The vessel is on the verge of a complete systems failure. To the Bajoran Ensign standing next to her. No problem. Yes, I am aware of that. However, the Captain left me in charge during Lieutenant Torres' absence. Her feelings about me are irrelevant. Activate the interface transceiver.

Begin the download. It's systems are overloading. The alien vessel is destabilising. It's destruction is imminent. KIM: Captain, it's going to explode. EMH: The lifeform has taken control of her body at the autonomic level, drawing proteins from her tissues, white blood cells from her arteries. EMH: A form of attack? MOSET: I find it odd that a species would evolve an attack mechanism that would leave it so vulnerable.

Why not do it's damage and retreat? EMH: A parasite, perhaps? It's unlikely it could sustain itself like this over the long term. EMH: Its own systems are damaged. It's doing this as a stopgap measure, to keep itself alive. EMH: I'd like to think that's a fight you and I can win. I just wish we had access to my laboratory. It has all the instrumentation we would need. Well, we'll just have to improvise.

EMH: Not necessarily. We may be able to create a reasonable facsimile of your laboratory in our holodeck. EMH: Providing of course, you can give an accurate description. It's more of a home to me than my home. We'll get this thing off you. Just think, I could force you to listen to rock and roll all day and you wouldn't be able to do a thing about it. He's just a hologram. A specialist in exobiology. The Doc thinks he might be able to help you. Besides, he's just a walking database. As far as I'm concerned, they're all cold-blooded killers.

Unfortunately, that cold-blooded killer may be the only one who can save your life. EMH: Impressive. Is this where you did your work on the Fostossa virus? Actually, I was on Bajor at the time, during the Occupation. A sad chapter in Cardassian history. We had no business being there, but try telling that to the politicians.

When I think of the resources that were squandered, the lives that were lost. EMH: But from what I understand, you saved thousands of lives. The military had everything they needed but the civilian hospitals? No staff, the crudest equipment. EMH: Don't tell me. You were forced to improvise. EMH: I know what that's like. MOSET: I didn't have the resources to try traditional methods, so I experimented with procedures that, that never would have occurred to me under ordinary circumstances.

The discovery of the cure was almost accidental, really. EMH: You're being modest, Crell. EMH: You made medical history. You won the Legate's Crest of Valour. It's the work that matters. EMH: Of course. Still, the recognition of your peers, your government. It must be very satisfying. EMH: Naturally. Unfortunately, no one from Starfleet ever hears about them.

I toil in obscurity. At least I'll know about your accomplishments. EMH: All right. Shall we get to work? EMH: Computer, create a holographic re-creation of the alien in Sickbay. Yes, thank you. Captain's log, supplemental. While the Doctor seems to be making progress, Commander Chakotay and I have hit a wall in our attempt to decipher the alien message. So maybe if we retransmitted that message others of the species would realise we need their help. If they're out there, they'll hear it. I agree. It'll be a difficult first contact, but we might find a way to communicate.

Retransmit the alien's message on all subspace bands. Deflector at full capacity. The deflector dish blasts the message into space. The EMH is humming opera. Moset starts to join in. My wife tells me I'm tone deaf. EMH: Not at all. You were right on key. If you enjoy music we can run some opera programmes after we're finished. I think we're ready for a look inside. EMH: Forgive me for saying so, but this appears to be a rather crude instrument, especially when we have such advanced equipment at our disposal. All of our elaborate scanners and laser scalpels, they remove us from our subjects.

Actually feeling the anatomy, the consistency of the internal organs. It can be very instructive. Why don't you do the honours? Make a vertical incision, say twelve centimetres, starting here. He cuts into the hologram's back. It screams. EMH: We're hurting it. I guess as a hologram myself, I have a certain empathy. Moset pulls the tissue apart.

Look at that series of nodes. EMH: They appear to be clustered along the primary nerve. EMH: Suggesting a highly intelligent species. EMH: Attack? The creature will lose motor function and we'll be able to remove it. EMH: The procedure will probably kill the creature. EMH: I'd like to find a way to save them both. But we have to set priorities which, in this case, is your crew mate. EMH: This is a sentient lifeform. For all we know it could be this species' Einstein, its Picasso. The point is, we don't know, and we have choices to make. EMH: Your programme's destabilising. EMH: I'll have to take you offline.

But don't worry, we'll have you up and running again in no time. Computer, take Medical Consultant programme offline. Doctor to Ensign Kim. KIM: Go ahead, Doc. EMH: Our new programme's destabilising. KIM: I'll meet you in Sickbay. We'll try to reinitialise him there.

Tabor, I could use some help. KIM: Try again. KIM: Maybe, but I don't want to do that unless we absolutely have to. EMH: My consultant's gone offline. You can leave him off. EMH: I'm surprised by your attitude, Lieutenant. I never took you for someone who would make generalisations based on race. EMH: I understand your experience with them was unpleasant, but if you give Crell a chance, I think you'll find that he's a friendly, compassionate man. Not to mention a genius who's trying to save your life. EMH: Suit yourself. But you should know I plan on asking the Captain to keep him on as a permanent consultant.

EMH: Well, you'll just have to get used to it. Who knows, you may even grow to like him. EMH: How's it coming? KIM: We're close. KIM: Good. Computer, reactivate Medical Consultant programme beta one. Do I know you? He's a mass murderer! EMH: You must be mistaken. Moset performed experiments on living people. Thousands of Bajorans were killed in his so-called hospital. EMH: Is this true? No, he's.

There must be some misunderstanding. Take it easy, Tabor. I should go. EMH: I'm sorry about this. Computer, transfer Medical Consultant programme to holodeck two. The screams of his patients. The smell. Chemicals and dead flesh. He operated on my grandfather. Exposed his internal organs to nadion radiation. It took six days for him to die. I promised myself I would never forget. EMH: You were very young. Is it possible your memory of these events is inaccurate? He blinded people so he could study how they adapted. Exposed them to polytrinic acid just to see how long it would take for their skin to heal.

EMH: Ensign, the man you're accusing cured the Fostossa virus. He stopped an epidemic that killed thousands of Bajorans. Old, helpless people like my grandfather, because he considered their lives worthless. EMH: How do you know this? EMH: I don't understand why this isn't in our database. I wouldn't be surprised if the real Moset went on to live a normal life.

Every trace of that man's research should be deleted from the database. EMH: What's happening? Pulse is rapid and irregular. EMH: No doubt you've said something to upset her. EMH: Tell me what? EMH: B'Elanna, we're very close to a solution. EMH: I don't know that I can. EMH: Two milligrams of inaprovaline. Chief Medical Officer's Log, supplemental. I've managed to stabilise Lieutenant Torres for the time being, but the matter of how to proceed with her treatment remains unresolved.

KIM: Isolate datablock oh four five nine. EMH: Ensign? You wanted to see me? KIM: We've been looking for evidence that might support Tabor's accusations. EMH: Anything? KIM: Actually, that's why we called you here. It's not looking good. EMH: Show me. The alleged site of Moset's crimes. KIM: Strategic information, log entries kept in battle, sensor scans from Starfleet vessels.

This, for example. Requisition records from one of Crell Moset's hospitals. EMH: Of course he needed samples of the virus. That's how vaccines are developed. KIM: Take a look at the requisition orders. EMH: Moset didn't ask for any of the enzymes normally required for synthesizing a vaccine. KIM: It gets worse. Four days after he received the virus samples there was a minor outbreak of Fostossa in the vicinity of his hospital.

Kim leaves. The Borg are accused of assimilating information with no regard for life. This Cardassian did the same, and yet his behaviour was tolerated. I'm almost ready to perform the surgery. EMH: Lieutenant Torres won't allow you to have anything to do with her treatment. EMH: We've gathered some corroborating evidence. It appears that he's telling the truth.

You committed a series of atrocities during the Cardassian war. Thousands of Bajorans died on your surgical tables. And even if it were true, I'm only a hologram, and I have no memory of those events. They're not part of my programming. Your programme, despite all its brilliance, is based on his work. He infected patients, exposed them to polytrinic acid, mutilated their living bodies, And now we're reaping the benefits of those experiments.

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